G-LK7YED756D Design handoff - Juicy Patterns Podcast

Episode 2

#2 Design Handoffs: Finding Balance between Authority, Control, and Accountability with Erez Reznikov

In this episode of Juicy Patterns, our guest, Erez Reznikov, principal designer at Jux, delves into the challenges faced in the handoff between design and development, and why he believes that a solution can be found in the design tool itself. Along with exploring the root cause of these problems, we discuss the importance of designers having a balance of authority, control, and accountability, and how this can be achieved through the design tool. Additionally, Erez shares his insights on the obstacles in the way of widespread adoption of new design tools like Jux and what it would take to overcome them. Tune in to learn more about this fascinating topic at the intersection of design and development!

Transcript
Speaker:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

Hey everyone

2

:

Welcome to the Juicy Patterns podcast.

3

:

Today with me, I have Mr.

4

:

Erez Reznikov.

5

:

Erez is a dear friend.

6

:

of Mine.

7

:

He's a principal designer.

8

:

at Jux.

9

:

He's a design educator and a Figma

and Webflow evangelist, and I

10

:

have so many questions for him.

11

:

Welcome Erez.

12

:

Track 1: thanks a lot.

13

:

Thanks a lot.

14

:

Um, yes, there, there's something about

being called a mister at the age of 35

15

:

that sort of makes you feel like 55.

16

:

I.

17

:

So, uh, thank you for that edition.

18

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

I try to give the proper respect.

19

:

Track 1: Yeah, thanks a lot.

20

:

Thanks a

21

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: so,

so, so wait, are you gonna buy the, the

22

:

Figma keyboard, the new Figma keyboard?

23

:

Track 1: No, I'm so against it.

24

:

Like you cannot imagine how against I am.

25

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: But why

I, you know, think about it as like a,

26

:

a new experience for, it's not just, uh,

27

:

Track 1: I'll, I'll tell you why.

28

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: and all.

29

:

Yeah.

30

:

Track 1: I'll tell you why.

31

:

Um, for the same reason that generic

solutions, uh, usually outperform specific

32

:

solutions in the sense that because I

have a keyboard for many different apps,

33

:

um, the last thing I want is to develop

muscle memory for a new thing that will

34

:

only be available for me and relevant for

me for Figma, but not for anything else.

35

:

And so.

36

:

Instead of having a mouse, a

trackpad, a keyboard, now I have

37

:

mouse trackpad keyboard and a special

keyboard only for some occasions.

38

:

It's like I try to minimize that

clutter in my life now, maximize it.

39

:

So if, um, if I can, if I, if I

can have even less, I would, I

40

:

would love to do that instead,

41

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: But

42

:

if, if you spend like

43

:

so many hours in a day, like working,

uh, with the same app with Figma,

44

:

like, don't you want like something

that is, especially for this thing

45

:

Track 1: Do.

46

:

Do you know how many years it took me to

develop the specific muscle memory for

47

:

all the specific shortcuts and figma that

I've already developed for my keyboard?

48

:

Now you want me to unlearn it

and relearn something else?

49

:

Hell with that.

50

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: I just

recently learned the, the shortcuts with

51

:

the, the align functionality with Figma.

52

:

Uh, and it's a, you know,

it's, it's a game changer.

53

:

Like, I, I don't know how I

managed before it, So, so wait.

54

:

Um, okay.

55

:

You're a design educator.

56

:

You're teaching at Shenkar,

57

:

Track 1: College.

58

:

Yeah.

59

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

Engineering and Design.

60

:

You're a principal designer.

61

:

at Jux we'll talk about it.

62

:

And

63

:

you are a Figma and web flow evangelist.

64

:

What, what does it mean?

65

:

Track 1: it means that, um, very, very

early on, especially with, uh, with Figma.

66

:

Um, I sort of got the gist of why I think

that tool, and that could be Figma in the

67

:

case of Figma or Webflow in the case of

Webflow, um, is actually like the next,

68

:

the next big, you know, great thing I.

69

:

And, uh, I started basically

barking at every possible tree and

70

:

opportunity that I, uh, could muster.

71

:

Uh, hey people, if you need to have

a website, go do it in Webflow.

72

:

Leave everything else you've ever

tried aside and go to Webflow and

73

:

hey guys, if you're doing, uh,

product design with anything but

74

:

Figma, drop it and go to Figma.

75

:

So I start, I was the first in my

company when I was working at Overwolf.

76

:

I was the first one to sort

of, you know, discover it.

77

:

And, uh, some six years ago,

way before Figma was cool.

78

:

And, um, and I was blown away, uh, in the

comparison to the other tools I, I used,

79

:

uh, and immediately was like I was hooked.

80

:

This was the only tool I used and

eventually I, I, I, I felt so comfortable

81

:

with that, um, to the bemusement of

all the other designers in Overwolf.

82

:

I stopped using the Adobe

Suite almost completely.

83

:

So I illustrated with Figma.

84

:

I did everything I need, like, almost,

almost to the level of, I developed

85

:

all the assets for the animations in

After Effects in Figma, and it was still

86

:

more comfortable for me than doing it

in like Illustrator or XD or whatever.

87

:

Um, so yeah, I've just, and then

I just convinced everybody to, to

88

:

switch to Figma everywhere and, um.

89

:

I joined, um, another friend of ours,

uh, Ido Zaifman, some, almost five

90

:

and a half, six years ago, almost

immediately, uh, to run the, the Friends

91

:

of Figma Facebook group in Israel.

92

:

Um, and we've been running it ever since.

93

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

That's amazing.

94

:

I remember that

95

:

I tried.

96

:

to convince people to move from Photoshop

to Sketch, and everyone like laughed

97

:

at me and eventually I told them I

eventually they bought the, they uh,

98

:

built business models and like schools

about sketch and everything, and,

99

:

and then they, uh, switched to Figma.

100

:

Uh, I, I learned a lesson from

it just to, to believe like,

101

:

in my gut feeling and, uh,

102

:

just move on with, yeah.

103

:

So, so we have a problem

104

:

like the design industry.

105

:

We have a big, big problem

106

:

with, uh, with how we design.

107

:

Can you tell me what that problem is?

108

:

Track 1: Sure.

109

:

Um, so we have many problems,

but one problem that I am

110

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

The The big one.

111

:

The

112

:

Track 1: the big one, yeah.

113

:

We have, um, yeah.

114

:

So one of the things that happens when

you start really, really loving and using

115

:

a tool deeply and teaching it to others

is that you know it in its totality.

116

:

So there's, there's, there's not

a, there's not a thing about.

117

:

Um, about Figma, uh, for

example, that I didn't try or do.

118

:

Eventually, uh, you pick it apart

and when you do that, you start

119

:

noticing the problems with the tool

that you love and you pick apart

120

:

because unlike nobody else, like, you

know, it's like your spouse, right?

121

:

You know them so well, you know, all

of their faults and all of their, um,

122

:

misgivings and all of their problems

better than, you know, sometimes

123

:

better than they know themselves.

124

:

So, um, and so one of the things that I've

started noticing some, probably three,

125

:

four years ago, is that I'm constructing

all this beautiful design system like

126

:

structures with auto layout when it

came out, and varying groups and making,

127

:

you know, nice and tidy components and

everything is super well thought, thought

128

:

of, you know, in the, in the realms

of, you know, how much Figma allows me.

129

:

Um, and eventually, um, it's still

not, it, like, it's still not the

130

:

actual thing because eventually

the source of truth is not figma.

131

:

The source of truth is whatever the

front end developers, uh, understood from

132

:

whatever they, uh, took from your Figma,

and basically it sort of, um, it, it,

133

:

it, it creates a whole slew of problems,

chief of which is an emotional problem.

134

:

Because, um, um, your drive and

motivation to work is driven

135

:

by emotions a lot of the time.

136

:

And if, uh, repeatedly you see that

you put a lot of effort into something,

137

:

you craft it to the perfect perfection

that you can, you know, uh, dream of.

138

:

And then eventually it gets butchered

by developers that sort of, um.

139

:

Don't see properly, don't measure quite

effectively, don't diligently go and

140

:

check every size, color and stuff.

141

:

Uh, and eventually you get the

product, uh, in like the, the,

142

:

uh, I don't know, the development

environment, and you inspect it

143

:

and even before you even inspect

it, like with the inspect elements,

144

:

like just by looking at, you're like

immediately, okay, things are off here.

145

:

I did not design this crap.

146

:

My thing was shiny, right?

147

:

Why is this so?

148

:

No.

149

:

Poor looking.

150

:

And uh, when it happens again and

again, and again, and again and again,

151

:

eventually you start to develop cynicism.

152

:

Um, and that cynicism, it's like poison.

153

:

Um, because you start to sort of

say to yourself, ah, you know,

154

:

I'll do this one, I'll do that

one, but it doesn't even matter

155

:

because, you know, let them ship it.

156

:

And then we will just, uh, continue on

from the real product and see how it goes.

157

:

And so you start to sort of diminish

your motivation for the craft itself and.

158

:

And once I sort of, once I've seen

that this, this, this is what happens

159

:

in my mind when I start designing

and the, the dreaded, oh, come on.

160

:

It couldn't be, again,

it's not like I designed.

161

:

Um, it sort of completely throws you off.

162

:

Um, and you only notice the, so, so

sometimes, you know, it's like fish don't

163

:

know that they're inside of water because.

164

:

They're always inside of water.

165

:

In, in, in the same way.

166

:

People that don't experience

anything, um, more self, uh, allowing

167

:

than Figma, they don't know that

something else is even available.

168

:

And so only when I really started to dive

169

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

It's like dimensions.

170

:

It's like dimensions.

171

:

When you're in the second

dimension, you don't know

172

:

Track 1: don't know that

there's the third one?

173

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: and

174

:

Track 1: Yeah.

175

:

There's no

176

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

you don't know.

177

:

Yeah.

178

:

Track 1: Exactly, exactly.

179

:

And only when I actually started using

Webflow Deeply, and I got this feeling

180

:

of, hold on, I can be the, the, the,

the, the, the master of my fate.

181

:

Right?

182

:

It's like I designed it and I published

it and it was it, and there was nothing

183

:

between me and the final product at least.

184

:

And nothing in the terms of like the

styling of things, the responsivity,

185

:

the, the behavior of the design itself.

186

:

Um, and that feeling got really

addictive really fast, uh,

187

:

because you are empowered, like

you never were empowered before.

188

:

And, um, and then it's

like, wait a minute.

189

:

So I know how it should feel, um,

in a tool like Webflow, but Webflow

190

:

sort of, um, it's sort of only for

websites and only for a specific

191

:

kind of websites because again, web.

192

:

For now.

193

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

194

:

Webflow assumes there's no developer

eventually coming, coming to the rescue.

195

:

Right.

196

:

It's like you as a designer

with your webflow and that's it.

197

:

Everything is you.

198

:

Um, and so, um, and that's a problem

because, you know, web application,

199

:

native application, complex things,

uh, you can't develop them in

200

:

webflow by yourself as a designer.

201

:

It's like, it's not even close.

202

:

It's not even remotely close.

203

:

Um, and also Webflow has a.

204

:

They did a piss poor job, um, at making

their code actually lovable by developers.

205

:

So when I showed my websites

to real developers, front end

206

:

developers, they looked at it and

it's like, I would never use that.

207

:

I would rather look at what you've done

here, rewrite everything completely, using

208

:

my own react components and whatever,

209

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

Right now in:

210

:

Track 1: even right now.

211

:

Even right now.

212

:

Yeah.

213

:

So, uh, so that sort of leaves

you in this closed garden when

214

:

you are a master of your fate.

215

:

Only in so far as your fate is marketing.

216

:

Uh, websites not too big,

not too complex, right?

217

:

It's a problem.

218

:

But on the other hand, you have Figma,

which is generic, and you can build

219

:

whatever the hell you want with that,

but it doesn't give you the reality, the,

220

:

the full control, that Webflow gives you.

221

:

You're sort of stuck in this

situation when you know how it

222

:

should feel, but it's only limited.

223

:

And, uh, you have the unlimited

one, but it doesn't feel right.

224

:

Um, and so there's a hole.

225

:

There's something needs to give.

226

:

It eventually needs to be, uh,

something in between those two such

227

:

that you can both feel the reality

of it and be a master of the front

228

:

of the front end, like the stylistic

part of the, of the, of the front end.

229

:

And still be, uh, able to give that, uh,

product to developers so that they can

230

:

bring in all the logic and all the data

and all the connections and all of that.

231

:

Um,

232

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: don't

you think that it's too much in a way

233

:

like to, to, as a designer, to, to think

about user needs and to think about

234

:

solutions and like sketching everything

235

:

and then like to, to do the prototyping

from the early stages of the.

236

:

Low fidelity prototype

and, and doing everything.

237

:

it's another thing that

you wanna teach them.

238

:

So don't you think that

it's a bit too much?

239

:

Track 1: Well, uh, first of all, yes.

240

:

Okay.

241

:

The first answer is

yes, it is overwhelming.

242

:

Um, but the second part

of the answer is I.

243

:

Uh, fine.

244

:

So what, uh, why?

245

:

Because if you have, so if the span of

potential, um, things that designers

246

:

should take care of is now wider, the

only thing that you would expect the

247

:

industry to do, um, is to stratify into

different kinds of designers, right?

248

:

So.

249

:

Now the span is wider then,

and it's too wide for any

250

:

singular designer to be graded.

251

:

Like all of the span.

252

:

I think it's already too wide, even

before what I just, uh, uh, alluded to,

253

:

that has to happen even before that.

254

:

I think that the span is too wide.

255

:

You can't be a master.

256

:

You can't be a master researcher and also

a master UI craftsman and also a master

257

:

communicator and also strategy and blah.

258

:

It's too much already.

259

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah.

260

:

Track 1: Which means that, um, you'll

see, and you eventually do see, like

261

:

if this is the reality that designers

start to sort of occupy niches.

262

:

Like if you map everything on,

on, on the spectrum, right?

263

:

You see, uh, designers occupy

some of the potential verticals on

264

:

that spectrum, but not all of them

because it's just humanly impossible.

265

:

What I envision is going

to happen is that, uh.

266

:

It already is sort of

happening with Figma.

267

:

If you like, pay close attention,

you'll see that there is a birth of

268

:

a very technocratic, And very sort

of, uh, analytical designer, uh,

269

:

that likes to create design systems.

270

:

It's usually the designers that

work in design ops in bigger, in

271

:

bigger firms or bigger companies.

272

:

Uh, they don't like solve

user needs by the day.

273

:

They usually solve the other designer's,

uh, needs by crafting better component

274

:

and better API of those components inside

of the design system with the developers.

275

:

And, uh, they tend to be perhaps, maybe

sometimes less flamboyantly creative.

276

:

Uh, but they tend to be much more

meticulous and they're less afraid

277

:

of the technicalities of, of, of the

real interactivity, um, you know,

278

:

of how it represents itself in code.

279

:

Um, sometimes they will also

code slightly in like, you know,

280

:

CSS, html, sometimes JavaScript.

281

:

Um, so you already see

that my, my only, uh.

282

:

Prognosis.

283

:

Right.

284

:

The, the only thing that I think is

going to happen is that I, I think

285

:

it's going to, um, happen more and

more and more up to the level will you?

286

:

Well, you have, um, something that you

might call some, like, something like a

287

:

UI engineer ish, kind of a, uh, position

in which you're going to be very, very,

288

:

very knowledgeable of how, you know,

CSS works or how the reality of the, of

289

:

the code works and if you have a good

enough tool so that you can use it.

290

:

Something like Webflow.

291

:

So for example, if you today want

to use Webflow, the set of skills

292

:

that you need to have and the set

of knowledge that you have to.

293

:

Um, uh, that you have to have in

order to actually manipulate web flow

294

:

effectively is already pretty vast.

295

:

So just imagine if you had, if you had a

web flow, married to Figma in some way.

296

:

Such that it still can be generic,

but it uses and gives you all of the

297

:

reality of code, as you know, as ui,

uh, such that you can create things.

298

:

So it gives you units that are real,

all the availability of Flexbox and CSS

299

:

grid or whatever it needs to be, right?

300

:

Um, you know, display positioning,

the reality, not like, because you

301

:

know, Figma, Figma is hiding a lot

from designers from the real world,

302

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: It's

like making everything So beautiful

303

:

and easy, but it's not how the

real world, the real world works.

304

:

Like, like developing stuff.

305

:

You know, I learned that when I first

started using Webflow and I had to

306

:

like manipulate all the screen sizes

307

:

like I had.

308

:

An image and it was a disaster.

309

:

And like the the Figma, the Figma

design was amazing and everything,

310

:

and it was approved by all the

stakeholders and it was amazing.

311

:

And eventually when I came

to develop this thing, I had

312

:

so many problems and I

learned that Figma is just.

313

:

It's not enough,

314

:

but my

315

:

question is, yeah, but my

question is like, I hear you.

316

:

Okay.

317

:

When you're talking about organizations

like big corporates, but startups.

318

:

Startups usually have like one

designer for almost a year and a

319

:

half, maybe, maybe two years if they

320

:

raise money.

321

:

Track 1: True,

322

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

So, you know, and the, usually you

323

:

don't build a design system until

you get to a point that you grow

324

:

as a company.

325

:

But again, if you're like giving more

work to, to, a designer in a startup,

326

:

would you think that it'll work as

good as in a, a big company in an

327

:

Track 1: Well.

328

:

So first of all, of course, if

you have less designers, they

329

:

have to occupy wider spectrums.

330

:

You might expect that there will

perform more poorly on, um, on

331

:

different tasks that they have, right?

332

:

If you have only one designer, and that

designer needs to do marketing design,

333

:

website design, or website building

in something like Webflow, and also

334

:

product design and also brand, like,

you should expect that unless you.

335

:

You know, unless you discovered a unicorn

designer that is like the next Einstein

336

:

or Da Vinci, uh, but just modern age,

uh, other than that, uh, you'd probably

337

:

come across a designer that has some

things that he, you know, knows how to

338

:

do better and some things he's like sort

of half asing, uh, just enough so that

339

:

to clear the bar, to clear the threshold.

340

:

But you need to remember that in startups

clearing the bar, clearing the threshold.

341

:

Is sometimes just enough, right?

342

:

You just need to make it good enough

so that they can, uh, get more money

343

:

from VCs and then get the second and

the third and the fourth designer.

344

:

So I don't really see a

problem there more than that.

345

:

Um, I think that if you have the,

like, if the right tool is created,

346

:

um, then it's going to substitute some

knowledge that you currently have.

347

:

Uh, for example, in a tool like Figma for

another type of knowledge in another tool.

348

:

So it's not that you, uh, it's not that

you always accumulate more and or need

349

:

to accumulate more and more knowledge.

350

:

So I'll give you an example.

351

:

So suppose, um, suppose you're

talking about layout, okay?

352

:

Um, if you, if you try to see

how layout works in Webflow.

353

:

Then you'll see that it

has real display modes.

354

:

So you have Flexbox and CSS grid and

inline block and block and inline and

355

:

none if you want to hide something.

356

:

Okay, fine.

357

:

What do you have in Figma?

358

:

You have some new thing that doesn't

exist, uh, outside of Figma, which

359

:

is, uh, either it's a normal frame

and then you have constraints.

360

:

Which is like, they correlate to position

absolute in, in, in real life code.

361

:

Um, and you have auto layout, which is

some special form of flag box that Figma

362

:

created, but it's not really Flex box.

363

:

And there's, if, if you want, we can

map the differences between them,

364

:

but it's not really, really Flex box.

365

:

And

366

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: What,

what's the difference for, for designers

367

:

that don't know what's the difference?

368

:

Like what is the

369

:

Track 1: Well, there, there's, there's

many there, there's many differences.

370

:

So, for example, in Flexbox, um, there is

a, there there's a separate fate that you

371

:

can have for children and for the parent.

372

:

So the parent can say something like,

all the children flex, uh, all the,

373

:

all the children stretch, sorry.

374

:

But then, and you have like five children,

and then one of the children you say to

375

:

it, oh yeah, like, ignore father, right?

376

:

Ignore the, the, the, the

parent, uh, the parent container

377

:

that has the flex stretch.

378

:

Uh, you do flex left and top right.

379

:

For example.

380

:

Now a lot of enigma.

381

:

It, it's an, an impossible feat.

382

:

You cannot do that.

383

:

Um, plus, um, in Figma, everything will

be dispersed into different places.

384

:

So the place you would control

things like hug content.

385

:

Or fill container, right?

386

:

Um, you would have it in the sizes right

in the module up and top, but the place

387

:

that you decide things like the, the auto

layout is going to be down a couple of

388

:

models in a completely different place.

389

:

But in reality, when you

control how things behave and

390

:

how much space they occupy.

391

:

It's the same thing.

392

:

So you will tell all your kids to stretch.

393

:

It's the same flexbox module that you

told them to go top and left or whatever.

394

:

Um, there's things that just,

just don't exist in auto layout

395

:

that exist in, uh, Flexbox, like

the ability to have space around.

396

:

In Figma, the only thing you can do,

you can do Auto in the Gap and then

397

:

it, it's an equivalent in Flexbox

to having space between, right?

398

:

So it pushes everything to the sides

and distributes in, uh, evenly, right?

399

:

The space between the things,

right, but not around the things.

400

:

And in Flexbox, you can have space around.

401

:

Now sometimes that's

exactly what you want.

402

:

You want space around.

403

:

How do you do it?

404

:

In Figma, you, you cheat.

405

:

So you have padding on the side

that you shouldn't have had.

406

:

Right, and, and et cetera,

et cetera, et cetera.

407

:

There's a lot of things like that.

408

:

Um, wrapping is not so, for example,

in Figma, if you, I don't know

409

:

if you notice, you can have, um,

either vertical, either vertical or

410

:

a layout or horizontal or wrapping.

411

:

This is nonsense because wrapping

has nothing to do with direction.

412

:

Wrapping is a separate property

that you might incorporate in

413

:

when you, when you design stuff.

414

:

You can either trigger it or not.

415

:

So it's either wrap or, or no rep, right?

416

:

It's, it's a Boolean, uh, decision, but

it has nothing to do with the direction.

417

:

So you should be able to have wrap,

yes, wrap true when it's vertical wrap.

418

:

True when it's horizontal and

both of them reversed, right?

419

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: is not

420

:

Track 1: rever.

421

:

It's not as, and in Figma it's,

it's as so what they actually did.

422

:

Like, if you, if you, if you try

to measure like what happened,

423

:

they actually said wrapping

only makes safe for horizontal.

424

:

So if, if you'll choose wrap, it basically

means direction, horizontal and wrap True.

425

:

They made it as a triple selector with

either of the three, which is nonsense.

426

:

And so it teaches more and more.

427

:

And there's a lot of

things like that in Figma.

428

:

It teaches more and more and more and

more things, um, that are just wrong.

429

:

Or I wouldn't say wrong because

it's like a relative term, but

430

:

it's not like real life code.

431

:

It's not like CSS or iOS or Android.

432

:

Um, and eventually, you know,

I have issue with that because.

433

:

Um, when you create a tool, you

create, um, it, it's like you

434

:

create a ditch in the snow, right?

435

:

And, and eventually everything will

follow that, those tracks, right,

436

:

that you laid out in the snow.

437

:

And so if you lay the tracks in,

in a certain way, everyone will

438

:

start learning about life, about

interactivity, about layouting from those

439

:

tracks you just created in the snow.

440

:

And if you create the wrong tracks.

441

:

You actually create a whole lot

of damage because you, generation

442

:

upon generation teach people the

wrong thing, the wrong mental model.

443

:

Because eventually the coders will have

to take the, the whatever Figma outputs

444

:

and sort of convert the thing that you do

did in auto layout into their own thing.

445

:

And then if you change something, the

thing you changed need needs, again,

446

:

some translator into, okay, but what

it would actually mean in code, right?

447

:

And I'm like, but, but why

couldn't you just absolutely match

448

:

the two and be done with that?

449

:

Or at least approximate it, right?

450

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

Yeah, I, I, I, I couldn't agree with

451

:

you more, but the thing that I'm

afraid of is like the, the steep

452

:

learning curve, like people don't

453

:

want to learn.

454

:

I.

455

:

It's a

456

:

tough, it's a tough thing to do

457

:

and especially today when like

so many designers are like, are,

458

:

are like, they know the Figma way

459

:

and, uh, so wait, what,

what is the future?

460

:

Track 1: So look, um, I have

my own take, uh, on the future.

461

:

Um, working on that future, that's

what we do in Jux we try to create a

462

:

tool that will do just that will marry.

463

:

The realism of Webflow and the genericness

and canvas nature of, uh, Figma.

464

:

One of the, one of the suckiest

experience in Webflow is the fact

465

:

that you're stuck on that 100%

view of the, of the page, right?

466

:

It's always that.

467

:

It's always the page.

468

:

Uh, and if you like, want to have

three variations of that page, one

469

:

next to another, as you would do

in Figma in three seconds, right?

470

:

You would zoom out all drag.

471

:

Something that you have and you want

to explore, and you would immediately

472

:

see that right in front of your eyes.

473

:

And it's really, really helpful if

you want to brainstorm ideas when

474

:

you're in the sandbox, um, you

know, mindset currently, right?

475

:

Like you're, you're messing

around, um, trying things.

476

:

Um, Webflow is very stiff in that regard

because it's really, it's a, it's a

477

:

building tool, not a designing tool

478

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

But wait, wait.

479

:

We forgot.

480

:

We forgot about the new player.

481

:

Framer, what do you think about framer?

482

:

Track 1: Yeah, so Framer actually

goes in a direction that I like.

483

:

Um, and it's also trying to sort of

marry, um, Figma and Webflow ish.

484

:

Um, I think it, it sort of marries it in

the wrong way slightly because it allows

485

:

more freedom than I think is warranted.

486

:

Um, I'll try to explain why.

487

:

So in, in framer.

488

:

By default, if you put something

on the page, um, you can

489

:

drag it around freely, right?

490

:

Um, unless you take

measures to not do that.

491

:

So, um, like in, in CSS you have

position, uh, property and you can

492

:

either have static or you can have,

um, relative, absolute fixed, uh,

493

:

sticky, you know, things like that.

494

:

So the thing is that when you,

any tool that will allow you to

495

:

drag around things freely, what it

actually is doing behind the scenes

496

:

is making it position absolute okay?

497

:

Now, the problem with position absolute

is that, um, you almost never want

498

:

to use that unless you must, because

position absolute is very stiff.

499

:

Uh, it's, it's by design not

responsive because it's not part

500

:

of the flow of the DOM itself.

501

:

So the, the, the elements, the noses

and the DOM, they push each other down.

502

:

And if you want something to

hover above something else,

503

:

you make position absolute.

504

:

Now Figma is position absolute by default.

505

:

Like everything is position

absolute, unless you put it

506

:

inside of an auto layout frame.

507

:

Um.

508

:

Framer basically does the same, right?

509

:

So you really need to actively take a

stack, which is basically as saying flex

510

:

box vertical, uh, or flex box horizontal.

511

:

If you have like columns, right?

512

:

So it's either a vertical stack, like

an X stack or, or a Y stack, right?

513

:

So vertical or horizontal, and only inside

those stacks will eventually, you'll

514

:

basically work, um, not with position.

515

:

Absolute.

516

:

And what it allows users to

do is to mess around and do a

517

:

bunch of things in position.

518

:

Absolute.

519

:

And then wonder why when they try, uh,

to see the width, you know, to, to mess

520

:

around with the width of the browser,

it wouldn't really respond properly.

521

:

Of course it wouldn't respond

properly because you just made

522

:

it position absolute right.

523

:

So it sort of teaches you

to do the wrong thing.

524

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

Everything is positioned absolute, like in

525

:

framer.

526

:

Like,

527

:

Track 1: Unless you, unless you put

it, unless you put it in a stack.

528

:

Yes.

529

:

That's the problem.

530

:

Um, every time

531

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: and they

don't, and they, they don't talk about it.

532

:

They don't,

533

:

Track 1: of course, of course, because,

because they don't, they don't want

534

:

you to mess to, to, to even, um, to

even mess around with positioning.

535

:

It's not, it's not the thing that they

want to your mind to be preoccupied.

536

:

Um, and the same thing with Figma, right?

537

:

It's positioned absolute by default.

538

:

Everything, um, has the x and y, uh, data

points, uh, regarding where they are in

539

:

comparison to the zero zero of the axises.

540

:

Um, so yeah, I,

541

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

that designers need the freedom

542

:

and flexibility to try stuff

543

:

Track 1: I do, I I do, I completely do.

544

:

That's why, um, in Jux, the canvas itself

is like in Figma in the sense that you

545

:

can put things on the canvas freely

and drag them on the canvas freely.

546

:

But the minute you want to drag

something into an object, into a div,

547

:

right, immediately gravitation works.

548

:

So inside that div by default

is position static and display

549

:

block or flex or whatever it

is that you're currently doing.

550

:

But you really need to deliberately,

you, yourself as a user.

551

:

Like if you put something

inside of a div, right?

552

:

You yourself need to make the position

absolute by yourself proactively to

553

:

make that actually position absolute.

554

:

So by default, everything will just

work as it works in oral layout.

555

:

So things will push things around.

556

:

There's going to be forced order, right?

557

:

With gaps and stuff like that, right?

558

:

The

559

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

So, let me understand.

560

:

So, so let me understand.

561

:

Uh, I, as a designer, I can do whatever

I want, but as soon as I try to put it

562

:

inside the diviv, then it become like, I

need to be conscious to, to the, to the

563

:

stuff that going on in the property panel.

564

:

Like, what's going on with the

flex, flex box and everything.

565

:

Track 1: exactly.

566

:

So if you want to mess around, so

you have the freedom on the canvas on

567

:

the one hand, because on the canvas

itself, gravitation is meaningless.

568

:

Right.

569

:

You want to float around in space,

you want to be free, but inside

570

:

each, so suppose like it, it

571

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

You should have called.

572

:

You should have called the company

like something with gravitation.

573

:

It's smart.

574

:

Track 1: We had, uh, we had, we had

many, many discussions on how to call it.

575

:

It had many different names and

it started from a different name.

576

:

It started from Project Dreams that, that

was even before I, uh, joined the company.

577

:

But yeah, eventually it's Jux.

578

:

It's Jux because, uh, it's a shorthand

for juxtaposition because the whole,

579

:

the whole point of the company is to,

of the tool, not only the company, is

580

:

to juxtapose design and code and make

them sort of collide into one thing.

581

:

Um.

582

:

So basically the, the idea

is that you have the canvas.

583

:

The canvas, and it's free, and

you roam around and you can put

584

:

elements on the canvas freely.

585

:

But then once you start building

something, so the equivalent and Figma

586

:

would be if you put a frame on the canvas

immediately, the frame is auto layout.

587

:

So, so just imagine a world in which

if you create a frame, it's auto layout

588

:

by default, not regular by default.

589

:

Right?

590

:

And because it's auto, auto layout,

by default, everything you put in it,

591

:

uh, forces itself into a forced order.

592

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah.

593

:

Track 1: what I, um, so my

contention, my, my, my theory

594

:

about this is that, um, you want

595

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Unless I

detach it and if I detach a component or

596

:

a frame or whatever, like it goes into

the, the canvas mode and it goes around

597

:

freely.

598

:

Track 1: you need to, well,

what do you mean by detach?

599

:

Because,

600

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

if, if I get, if I get a com, if

601

:

I have a component, uh, on Figma.

602

:

Right.

603

:

And so when I detach it, I

know what I can do with it.

604

:

There are no instances, and I'm not

like, but what you're saying is that if

605

:

you put something inside a div and then

606

:

create a component for a repetitive use,

607

:

what happen if I detach a component,

608

:

Track 1: Well, nothing.

609

:

It will just.

610

:

Nothing will happen in the sense of

the layout, uh, the layout choice.

611

:

If it was display, uh, block or flex

or whatever, and the position choices

612

:

there will all remain exactly intact.

613

:

It will just seize being, uh, instance.

614

:

So it will seize being

part of the component.

615

:

It will just be like a frame.

616

:

In, in, in Jux land is just a

div because again, frames are so.

617

:

Even think about this, there's

no frames in life in, in, in CSS

618

:

and in code, there's divs, right?

619

:

So even the, even the taxonomy, like

the, the, the way things are named, um,

620

:

we are all for, uh, at least trying to

make them close to, to what's in reality.

621

:

Because, you know, you need to

eventually communicate with developers.

622

:

Um, you don't want to be

talking, um, Hebrew while

623

:

they're talking English, right?

624

:

It's, it's weird.

625

:

Like you would want.

626

:

The same language, like

627

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: I

628

:

say that, like I said, like I talked

about it like four or five years ago when,

629

:

uh, I was teaching, uh, sketch, like I.

630

:

told them like, you, you

should speak the same lingo

631

:

with your developers.

632

:

And again, you know when you're,

when you're looking at design system,

633

:

like each controller, each component

634

:

has a different name and it's a mess.

635

:

Like it's a big, big mess.

636

:

Track 1: I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give

you even some more interesting, uh,

637

:

deep down, uh, interesting facts.

638

:

So, for example, um, there's a checkbox

component, right, that you would

639

:

probably have if you have any sort of,

uh, forms in your SaaS application.

640

:

Or, or website even.

641

:

Right.

642

:

Um, so you'll, you'll create a

checkbox, uh, and then what the

643

:

developer will do is that it will

use, um, the native HTML element

644

:

called input, uh, input type checkbox.

645

:

And it will actually, the HTML itself

will render it as a checkbox, right?

646

:

And then you can style things

if you want, yada, yada, yada.

647

:

There's, uh, there's way to style check

boxes that are, um, ugly, uh, underneath

648

:

the surface, but pretty above the surface.

649

:

You would have to hide the actual

check box and create a div and

650

:

put an asset inside of that div.

651

:

Uh, to make it look like your specific

checkbox, because you don't want to

652

:

rely on the defaults of the browsers.

653

:

This is all ugly.

654

:

But what's more interesting is the

fact that if you have, for example, a

655

:

component, like a toggle switch, right?

656

:

A toggle, um, circle that goes

and, um, you'll think, okay, so in

657

:

Figma I will just create another

component called the Toggle, right?

658

:

But in real life code,

there are no toggles.

659

:

There's not such an

element in HTML elements.

660

:

That is called a toggle.

661

:

What, what, how people do

toggles, they create a checkbox.

662

:

So literally it's written

there, input type checkbox.

663

:

They hide the actual rectangle

of the checkbox, but toggle in

664

:

its essence is just a checkboard.

665

:

It's just a checkbox redesigned.

666

:

That's it.

667

:

And like, shh.

668

:

Nobody tells you that, right?

669

:

Um, so you thought you

just designed the toggle.

670

:

What the developer did

is undid your design.

671

:

Created the checkbox, restyled it to be

like your toggle, created an animation

672

:

on the, on the, you know, circle moving

and, and was done with that, right?

673

:

So this is just, just, you know, little

details of, and there's plenty of those.

674

:

So if you, if you actually start

comparing, uh, the, the actual components

675

:

of how do they actually get built,

layer by layer, node by node in the

676

:

DOM, uh, in real life code and how

they're built in Figma, you'll, you'll,

677

:

you'll discover a world of difference.

678

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah,

679

:

I, I

680

:

think

681

:

Track 1: me more.

682

:

So tell me more about

speaking the same lingo.

683

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

yeah, I think that, like I'm thinking

684

:

about your university, like I'm

thinking about the Webflow University,

685

:

which is so amazing.

686

:

I think

687

:

that what you, what you need to

build, like to educate designers

688

:

and wow, it's gonna be a tough

689

:

Track 1: Well, look, actually,

I think Webflow helped us a lot.

690

:

The fact that, um, first of

all, it had a great role.

691

:

Like it's a great role model of

how to build a university, right?

692

:

So they did a phenomenal job

with their, you know, university.

693

:

I've seen all the videos.

694

:

Um, it was production

quality through the roof.

695

:

And, um, and if, if we ever start,

you know, we're, we're very young.

696

:

It's like you, you webflow

is, is a 10 or 11-year-old.

697

:

Behemoth in, in, in a comparison to us.

698

:

Right.

699

:

So, um, so we have some time, uh, but,

um, but yeah, it's, it's a great role

700

:

model of how to do it beautifully.

701

:

But I think they already educated a

lot of the potential, uh, designers.

702

:

And also Figma did a lot of the

education that is going to be relevant

703

:

for us because, um, think about this.

704

:

If like Figma did something very

hard, they made auto layout,

705

:

which is essentially a form

of flexbox, as we've said.

706

:

Uh, something that is absolutely

common in the way regular, regular

707

:

designers product, ui, ux designers,

uh, build their screens, right?

708

:

So that's new.

709

:

Like if you compare it to everything

before that, um, the naive versions of

710

:

Sketch, xd and of course Illustrator and

711

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

But there are no.

712

:

implications to do it wrong.

713

:

That's the difference.

714

:

Track 1: Well, there's no implications for

the designer that he can see immediately.

715

:

There are implications where

he starts to handing it over to

716

:

developers and it's all wrong.

717

:

Um, although I would,

718

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: his fault.

719

:

You know?

720

:

It's other, it's the developer's fault, so

721

:

Track 1: yeah, I would, uh, I

would, I would starkly disagree,

722

:

uh, but, um, look what I would

723

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

But you know what I mean.

724

:

Like I'm

725

:

talking about the fact that it is

doing something and eventually it

726

:

goes to the developer and, you know,

let the developers like work it out.

727

:

Track 1: Look, eventually.

728

:

Um, I think that it also hurts

the designers themselves for many

729

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

I, I agree.

730

:

I agree.

731

:

Track 1: for the, even for like practical.

732

:

So leave, leave aside the handoff itself.

733

:

For practical reasons of

I just created something.

734

:

I want to make something larger and I

want by making it larger, uh, to make

735

:

it push everything else immediately.

736

:

Right?

737

:

If I constructed my auto layout, um,

scaffolding correctly, I'll be able

738

:

to do that quickly and be done with my

change in five minutes if I created it

739

:

incorrectly with a bunch of classical

frames, so frames without auto layout.

740

:

Um.

741

:

I'll make something higher and then it

will overflow into something else, and

742

:

then I'll have to move that one and move

the one after it, and the one after it.

743

:

And it's a whole cacophony.

744

:

And if you want something much, um, much

more interesting, like to take something

745

:

and to see how it works in a wider

resolution, if you didn't build your

746

:

auto layouts correctly, you're screwed.

747

:

You're going to waste so much time,

uh, manually recreating stuff,

748

:

and you'll probably get it wrong.

749

:

Um, which is by the way,

750

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

But it stays inside the

751

:

business, inside the company.

752

:

Like real users won't see it.

753

:

That's the difference.

754

:

Track 1: Right, right.

755

:

It will just take you more time as a

designer so you will waste more time.

756

:

Um, and you know, if you're wasting time,

um, moving around frames that you poorly

757

:

constructed, you're not doing something

else that is valuable for the company.

758

:

Like, I don't know, talking to

customers, solving something actual

759

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: But

your managers wouldn't know that.

760

:

Track 1: Right,

761

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: When

it come, when things come from real

762

:

users, your managers will know it.

763

:

Track 1: Yep, that's true.

764

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

the whole difference.

765

:

Track 1: Well, the, it will just make

the velocity of your shipping slower.

766

:

And so that is something that might,

so that might be a KPI for you as a

767

:

designer in a, you know, in a, in a

self-aware, uh, squad that sort of

768

:

looks at the, uh, the, uh, the stop

stopwatch, you know, between each, each

769

:

and every other delivery you give, right?

770

:

So, uh.

771

:

Um, it affects,

772

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah.

773

:

Track 1: yeah.

774

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: I, I, I,

I really believe, like I, I believe in.

775

:

I believe in your product,

but the only thing that I'm

776

:

concerned is the cultural thing

777

:

that people want.

778

:

Like they, they wouldn't

want to try new things.

779

:

It's so difficult.

780

:

It's so hard

781

:

to to change a culture,

to change a market,

782

:

Track 1: Yeah, definitely.

783

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

educate people.

784

:

Um, and I think that fig and I

think that the Figma success is.

785

:

Based on making things easier.

786

:

Like they lied to designers,

787

:

let's, let's be honest for a sec.

788

:

They lied.

789

:

It's a lie, right?

790

:

In a way,

791

:

Track 1: Well, they didn't lie

more than anyone before them.

792

:

So like, sketch lied even more if you,

if you like, if you call that a lie.

793

:

Right.

794

:

So,

795

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

I understand what you're saying.

796

:

The thing is that people

don't want the truth.

797

:

I heard that Jeff Bezos, uh, he said

that people don't want the truth.

798

:

We're a social,

799

:

uh,

800

:

Track 1: a social animal.

801

:

Yeah.

802

:

With Lex

803

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: animals.

804

:

We, we'd like, we, we would prefer to,

to, to, to listen to, to, you know,

805

:

things that we'll love and adore, but

we wouldn't want to know the truth.

806

:

Track 1: That's true.

807

:

I.

808

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

talking about the truth,

809

:

Track 1: Right.

810

:

So one, so one way to combat, so

first of all, the friction that

811

:

you're eloquently, uh, describing

here, uh, is all too real, right?

812

:

I'm the first to admit it.

813

:

Um, as an evangelist of Figma and

Webflow, I know what the friction was

814

:

to make people use properly figma and

webflow, um, the, the way to combat

815

:

this, so like, okay, so what do you do?

816

:

Right?

817

:

How do you, how do you win?

818

:

Um, as far as I'm concerned, the

best way to do that is to offer

819

:

something so valuable, orders of

magnitude more valuable, um, that

820

:

people are willing to take the hit.

821

:

They're willing to, to go through

the friction, learn the new ui,

822

:

the new way of thinking, the

whatever, because they're gonna get

823

:

something very valuable in return.

824

:

And if we're correct in our

assumptions, uh, in Jux.

825

:

Um, the thing that it will get

in return is that it will, it

826

:

will achieve the same level.

827

:

It will be the holy grail

basically, as far as I'm concerned.

828

:

Otherwise, I wouldn't be building

it with my friends and colleagues.

829

:

Um, the holy grail is the, is

is such, you want something that

830

:

eventually you'll be the total

controller of as a designer, right?

831

:

So you eventually will use all the real

elements the same way that you will drag

832

:

a checkbox and it will be a real checkbox.

833

:

And you will drag a dropdown.

834

:

It will be a real dropdown or a select

box or an input text input, right?

835

:

Whatever, whatever element you'll drag

and make it a component and create

836

:

variance in a variant, uh, matrix.

837

:

The same way you would do in in Figma,

uh, when you will do that, and you

838

:

will be the total controller of all the

styles and all the tokens that you're

839

:

using for all the different decisions.

840

:

And eventually, if you push that and

the developer pulls that, which is

841

:

the, the flow that we have in jus.

842

:

And the developer pulls that

and he pulls that already done.

843

:

So the front of the front end is done.

844

:

The only thing the

developer needs to do now?

845

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

yeah, but the

846

:

question is, do they

want this responsibility?

847

:

Track 1: Well, I think they do.

848

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

but the question is, do I

849

:

want this responsibility?

850

:

Do I

851

:

Track 1: I think that

852

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911:

total control over my design?

853

:

Track 1: I think they do, and the

reason I think they do is that if you

854

:

look at almost all the things that,

um, people are writing on, you know,

855

:

medium and other platforms regarding,

Hey, this is what we did with the

856

:

developers to make sure our figs resemble

life even more so that we're less

857

:

surprised when the developers actually

develop whatever it is they develop.

858

:

Like the whole promise of design systems.

859

:

Like if you, if you actually.

860

:

Like rehash it in simple language.

861

:

The whole promise of design

system is being less, uh, confused

862

:

and being less surprised when

eventually things get developed.

863

:

Right?

864

:

Because if you standardize

things, what is standardization?

865

:

Standardization is minimization

of surprise, actually.

866

:

Right?

867

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: In a way,

868

:

Track 1: In a way, right?

869

:

So if I standardize something, that

means that I can, uh, predict the

870

:

future better because of the standard.

871

:

I can expect something, right?

872

:

This is why you can drive in other

countries, but your own 'cause you

873

:

expect the whole way, uh, roads work

to be consistent, to be the standard.

874

:

That's why standards are good.

875

:

And if, um, if you know that

you are the sole controller of

876

:

the stylistic part of the ui.

877

:

There's no developer to

even, so there's no handoff.

878

:

Nobody's taking your designs

and reconstructing them.

879

:

There is, it's already constructed in ju

the only thing the developer is left to

880

:

do is to evaluate it, make sure it makes

total sense, and then hook up all the

881

:

logic and the data and all the things

that developers actually like doing.

882

:

Right?

883

:

'cause there's a whole, there's a

whole area that we didn't speak about.

884

:

And it is, do you think front-end

developers themselves, like the

885

:

process in which they have to take

the designs and Figma painstakingly

886

:

inspect them in dev mode or not in

dev mode, whatever, and eventually

887

:

rebuild everything by themselves and

code only to be then yelled at by the

888

:

designers that they missed something.

889

:

Right.

890

:

Do you think they, they like that process.

891

:

If you talk to enough de developers,

the answer will be a stark no.

892

:

So the, the, the less, the less

reconstructing they need to do,

893

:

the happier the developers are.

894

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah.

895

:

So I, I, I believe in, uh,

I believe in the, this idea.

896

:

I hope that it'll work, you

know, my, uh, stance on it.

897

:

So, okay.

898

:

Let's, uh, let's wrap this up.

899

:

Beautiful.

900

:

I, I really enjoy like,

having this conversation.

901

:

And what, what would you

like to say to designers?

902

:

Is in general, like about the

future of UI design and about

903

:

your, the way that you see things.

904

:

Track 1: I think that, um, so, okay, one,

one beautiful equation that I learned.

905

:

Um, some, I think five, six years ago as

a ui, as a ui ux product designer with

906

:

a lot of slashes, uh, in between them,

um, is that there's an, there's like,

907

:

if everything is right in the company,

there's uh, an equilibrium between

908

:

authority and accountability, right?

909

:

So if everything goes correctly,

um, you can call the shot.

910

:

But it's your ass if that shot,

if that decision was wrong, right?

911

:

So you have the accountability,

but you have the authority.

912

:

Um, bad places is places where you have

a lot of accountability but no authority.

913

:

Uh, and two, two easy

places is places and user.

914

:

This is for some bosses, is that when you

have authority, but no accountability,

915

:

you can always blame the person down

now, but, but if everything is good,

916

:

there's an equilibrium between the

accountability and the authority.

917

:

Why is that important?

918

:

I think that what designers will gain

in tools like jocks or others, right?

919

:

We're not the only people who think

how to bridge that gap, right?

920

:

Whatever tool eventually

wins in that, in that regard.

921

:

Um, a future in which a designer

can up his level of accountability

922

:

will also be a future in which

he can up his level of authority.

923

:

And boy, people love authority.

924

:

So the only way to reach higher

authority is to reach higher

925

:

accountability as an equilibrium.

926

:

Right?

927

:

So

928

:

omer-frank_1_02-07-2024_180911: Yeah.

929

:

Erez thank you so much.

930

:

Um, that's it for, uh, this episode

of the Juicy Patterns Podcast.

931

:

And, uh, thank you for listening,

and I see you in the next episode.

932

:

Thank you so much.

933

:

Track 1: thanks for having me.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Juicy Patterns Podcast
Juicy Patterns Podcast
The design podcast

Listen for free